DevHeads.net

Color Managing KDE

First, I apologise about the cross posting. Please drop any list which
isn't relevant in your replies, and please also cc me as I'm not
subscribed to either list.

GNOME has been a color managed desktop by default for two releases
now, and I deliberately designed colord to have an open Freedesktop
DBus API that could be used by both desktops. Really, KDE just has to
include a KCM module to do the 6 things on this list and also perhaps
include a simple control center panel to configure it.

Basically, I need a KDE dude. Of course, I can help quite a lot and
mentor the project, but I’ve never really coded Qt or C++ in anger, so
to speak. If you’re interested, I could maybe even set up a Google
summer of code place as well, although I’d prefer it to be an existing
person familiar with the KDE community so there is some ongoing
maintainer.

If anybody is interested, let me know and I’ll set up a meeting and we
can talk and discuss details. Thanks.

Richard Hughes

Comments

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Kai-Uwe Behrmann at 02/22/2012 - 07:56

Oyranos CMS is about preparing a release and then the existing KDE Color
Management panel will be ready to continue inclusion into KDE. I
appologies for the delay. The KDE Color Management panel or kolor-manager
in kde git provides a front end to the Oyranos API, including
configuration of settings and devices.

Peer reviewed ICC profile packages from well known sources are packaged
and prepared for use with Oyranos. Honestly, the colord profiles are
uncontroled altered from uncertain sources, falsely labled and
unfortunately buggy. While the colord author can nothing for bad
colourimetric quality, there was even after many warnings no attemt to
check their quality and fix the package. So many users are now exposed
to these profile sets.

colord as well as Oyranos are no guarantee for a colour managed desktop.
There is far more work involved, like creating cross desktop standards
and in parts cross OS recommendations, which I have put much work into.
And these conventions have to be transformed into code, which are
target at KDE and I helped with.

kind regards
Kai-Uwe Behrmann

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Christoph Feck at 02/22/2012 - 07:30

On Wednesday 22 February 2012 11:46:53 Richard Hughes wrote:
Our "color management KDE dude" is Kai-Uwe Behrmann from Oyranos
team. See "git/playground/graphics/kolor-manager" for what is already
available.

Christoph Feck (kdepepo)
KDE Quality Team

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Gilles Caulier at 02/22/2012 - 07:41

If KDE include a color management based on Oyranos, what's about
applications which have already a Color Management system, based on
another library ?

For ex, in digiKam we have used LCMS ver1 and we currently port to
LCMS ver 2 (<a href="http://www.littlecms.com" title="http://www.littlecms.com">http://www.littlecms.com</a>)

We will need to break all LCMS based implementation in digiKam and
port all again to another library as Oyranos ???

Which CM sub-system is used by Gnome Desktop ? They uses Oyranos too ?

Gilles Caulier

2012/2/22 Christoph Feck < ... at maxiom dot de>:

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Kai-Uwe Behrmann at 02/22/2012 - 11:46

Gilles Caulier <caulier. ... at gmail dot com> schrieb:
Oyranos is optional. The configurations are planed to be parseable JSON.
It is up to de elopers to find value in it, e.g. it's multi monitor colour correction.
But that might become more interesting once Qt/KDE widgets are colour managed.

Btw. Oyranos is in parts a wrapper around lcms. It does not implement
ICC colour calulations like lcms, qcms, ArgyllCMS or SampleICC.

They use colord. But that itself does no colour correction at all, just configuration.
Gnome apps use lcms, like in Inkscape or Gimp.

kind regards
Kai-Uwe

kind regards
Kai-Uwe

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Richard Hughes at 02/22/2012 - 07:52

On 22 February 2012 11:30, Christoph Feck < ... at maxiom dot de> wrote:
I gave up on working with Kai-Uwe a long time ago. Oyranos and colord
are competing frameworks that have *very* different design ideologies.
I've written a lot in the past on why I think Oyranos is the wrong
approach, which I'll not write again here. From my biased point of
view, in just over one year, colord has gone from concept to being
included on nearly all distros by default. It's pulled in as multiple
things like GTK and CUPS as a dependency. It's my firm belief that
color management should be usable by real people without having to
install or configure anything.

I'm offering to help hackers in the KDE community build simple GUI
code on top of colord. You guys get a color management system that
works, and I get more users using my stuff. It's a win-win situation.

Richard.

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Kai-Uwe Behrmann at 02/22/2012 - 08:32

Am 22.02.12, 11:52 -0000 schrieb Richard Hughes:
I was always inviting for collaboration and will continue so. My
proposals and standards are a living example for that. The Taxi ICC online
DB is open for everyone, including colord users. Last year I wrote code to
share users settings on the desktop. The code, including a formal
proposal which was discussed on last years LGM in Montreal, is online and
planed to be use in Oyranos. This is a invitation to use it as well in
colord and other CMS'es for the freedom of users and application
developers. Think, DBus is not available everywhere.
The idea of competion came not from me and I do not like to follow that,
as it endangers collaborative work in OpenICC.

Hmm, the Oyranos project targets at non specialist and supports specialist
needs at the same time. Many things are automated for easy handling and
better control. I do not know, what is suggested with the last sentence.

regards
Kai-Uwe Behrmann

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Nuno Pinheiro at 02/22/2012 - 07:14

A Quarta, 22 de Fevereiro de 2012 10:46:53 Richard Hughes você escreveu:
Use case here I want this :D, please guys help Richard. Yill make you free
icons :D and mybe pay you a beer or 2.

cheers

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Boudewijn Rempt at 02/22/2012 - 07:30

On Wednesday 22 February 2012 Feb, Nuno Pinheiro wrote:
While I agree that KDE needs colormanagement built-in, especially with artists moving to KDE (I get almost no bug reports for Krita from gnome users anymore, while that used to be the majority...) it's not like nothing has been done before for KDE:

Especially:

<a href="http://www.oyranos.org/2011/11/kde-and-colour-management/" title="http://www.oyranos.org/2011/11/kde-and-colour-management/">http://www.oyranos.org/2011/11/kde-and-colour-management/</a>
<a href="http://www.oyranos.org/kolormanager/" title="http://www.oyranos.org/kolormanager/">http://www.oyranos.org/kolormanager/</a>

which are now, afaik, being used in OpenSUSE. There's quite a bit of contentiousness between around this topic, and I have to say, while I don't get the technical differences all the time, I do understand the friction I see happening on, e.g., the openicc mailing list.

With all the respect I feel for Richard, I do think that this is yet another of those technologies that get developed in splendid isolation for Gnome, forced upon the Linux world by Redhat, claimed to be a standard and which is then used to complain about KDE's lack of involvement yet again. It makes me feel a bit unhappy.

Re: Color Managing KDE

By John Layt at 02/22/2012 - 12:42

On 22 Feb 2012 11:29, "Boudewijn Rempt" < ... at valdyas dot org> wrote:
It's not a situation I understand or want, but the reality is we now have
two competing colour management systems which are shipping in distro's.
It's a situation I'll have to learn more about later from a Qt printing
context, but for now rather than debate the rights and wrongs we need to
think about supporting KDE users on Fedora, Red Hat, and any other distros
that choose colord over oyranos.

All that is needed here right now, and all I believe Richard is asking help
for, is for a KCM to configure colord. KDE is a community know for it's
pragmatism and I think we need to be pragmatic here as it is not diverting
significant resources or making deep changes, or expressing support for one
or other solution.

I believe Alex Fiestas has expressed an interest in the past in developing
a KCM so he might be a good starting point.

Re: Re: Color Managing KDE

By Alex Fiestas at 02/23/2012 - 05:23

On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 04:42:26 PM John Layt wrote:
I did, but since Oyranos appeared I put it in hold, I still think that
supporting colord is something we want but it is not in my priority list
anymore.

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Daniel Nicoletti at 02/22/2012 - 13:38

 >It's not a situation I understand or want, but the reality is we now have two competing colour management systems which are shipping in distro's. It's a situation I'll have to learn more about later from a Qt printing context, but for now rather than debate the rights and wrongs we need to think about supporting KDE users on Fedora, Red Hat, and any other distros that choose colord over oyranos. 
Sure, I think debating which solution is best won't take to any place, take init systems
for example, ubuntu has upstart, fedora has systemd, other ones legacy init though
most of them lack configuration though KDE.

I've been working with Richard since I started KPackageKit so we tend to understand each other,
I'll probably be helping him with this, last time I spoke with Alex he was also unsure about this matter,
but if he changes it's mind would be more than welcome :)

About colord not doing color correction it is true, it doesn't it's more like
a daemon that just sits there are provide color profiles, the app needs to
do the color correction, and here IMO it has a huge advantage, because
the toolkit/framework can decide which is best for it, giving freedom to apps,
even it they prefer to turn this off. Since depending on the application
you will not care to have the right color (imagine a terminal app...)

As Richard said Oyranos is doing all this by it self on the CPU so it
would act like a proxy between your application,
and the window manager which sounds like killing performance.
( I might have misunderstood but I can't see any other way of doing this)

Anyways I don't intend to increase the flames here just to point out
that I'm going to start on this, I don't have much time so if some new comers
are wiling for a from scratch job be welcome :D

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Kai-Uwe Behrmann at 02/22/2012 - 15:01

Am 22.02.12, 09:38 -0800 schrieb Daniel Nicoletti:
Proxy are configurable by applications as usual.
Oyranos is used inside a Compiz plugin as the actual only desktop colour
server.
That does very power efficient and fast colour correction on the GPU
through GL shaders. Users can watch colour corrected animations, movies
and 3D scenes full screen with that.

kind regards
Kai-Uwe

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Martin =?ISO-88... at 02/22/2012 - 17:03

Am 22.02.2012 20:01, schrieb Kai-Uwe Behrmann:
a) our solution for window and compositing is KWin
b) using Compiz means loss in core functionality provided by the KDE
Plasma Workspaces
c) to my knowledge the plugin does not work with recent versions of
Compiz (aka Compiz++, Compiz 0.9)
d) distributions are starting to drop Compiz
e) Compiz development has been adjusted to only suit the Unity desktop
and has been proclaimed as dead on the Internet

adding support to that in KWin should be fairly easy though I have no
clue about it and also no time for it.

Cheers
Martin

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Kai-Uwe Behrmann at 02/23/2012 - 01:18

"Martin Gräßlin" < ... at kde dot org> schrieb:
We had recently a discussion on the wayland channel. The result does in effect simplify colour management for compositors. A KWin GSoC project was added to the OpenICC ideas page. Advice from KWin developers during such a project would be highly appreciated.

I blogged with some more details about the X Color Management protocol, which can be implemented inside KWin:
<a href="http://www.oyranos.org/2012/02/x-color-management-0-4-draft1/" title="http://www.oyranos.org/2012/02/x-color-management-0-4-draft1/">http://www.oyranos.org/2012/02/x-color-management-0-4-draft1/</a>

kind regards
Kai-Uwe

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Kai-Uwe Behrmann at 02/22/2012 - 12:55

Am 22.02.12, 16:42 -0000 schrieb John Layt:
Fedora packages Oyranos since years.

An other approach is to put effort in bringing all Linux CMS'es to use
one common configuration DB. The format is agreed upon. I implemented some
code to access it and want now to use that inside Oyranos. We have a
OpenICC GSoC project to provide patches for all substancial CMS'es on
Linux namely ArgyllCMS, Oyranos and colord:
<a href="http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/OpenIcc/GoogleSoC2012#OpenICC_Colour_Configuration_Data_Base" title="http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/OpenIcc/GoogleSoC2012#OpenICC_Colour_Configuration_Data_Base">http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/OpenIcc/GoogleSoC2012#OpenICC_Colour_Con...</a>

kind regards
Kai-Uwe

Re: Color Managing KDE

By Jaroslav Reznik at 02/23/2012 - 05:36

We were already discussing it within our Fedora KDE SIG as we're
getting smashed between the colord (the rest of Fedora talks to) and
oyranos (with KDE integration and as I heard being preferred by
libre graphics people) gears.

I have to admit, I'm beginner in this area, trying to get overview
what's going on and to try to find technical solution that would fit
our needs. I met Kai-Uwe at FOSDEM but unfortunately I didn't have
time to attend CMS track :(

Richard, as colord is a Fedora born technology, could you contact me
off-list please with more information? At least in short term we would
need it before an agreement on generic solution is found. I can take
a look what's needed.

Jaroslav