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kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

Hello,

A while ago, I asked for a review of kdev-python, in order for it to
be moved from playground to extragear. There was some (legitimate)
objection about the fork of the python parser code the plugin
contains, which is why the move has not taken place yet, and
kdev-python is still residing in kdereview.

I'm actively working on solving the issue -- chances that a patch can
be applied upstream which enables me to drop the fork are good. [1]
(This would however only apply to future releases of the python 3
version of the plugin, since the patch introduces binary-incompatible
changes upstream which cannot be backported to python 2.)

Thus, I would suggest to move kdev-python to extragear, even if the
issue is not solved yet.
If you disagree, let me know, in that case I must move kdev-python
back to playground and propose it for review again once the fork has
been removed from the master branch. I would however prefer not to do
this.

Thanks and best regards,
Sven Brauch

Comments

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Pino Toscano at 03/09/2013 - 07:13

Hi,

Alle sabato 16 febbraio 2013, Sven Brauch ha scritto:
Considering the libpython fork in kdevpython is:
a) outdated (it is forked from python 2.7.1, current 2.7 is 2.7.3);
considering 2.7.1 has been released on 27/10/2010 and 2.7.3 on
9/4/2012, this means it is one years and half behind fixes and
improvements of any kind
b) modified (so it is not totally pristine sources which can be updated
from upstream sources, if needed)

this situation still makes me put -1 on this, sorry.

I can understand it can seem frustrating having this kind of situation,
but as both KDE developer and distro (Debian) developer I cannot find
acceptable letting yet another case of embbeded code copy [1] in a new
"extragear" software, yet more so when the software copied is something
critical as python. As said in previous emails, this would put a non-
trivial burden over packagers (and potentially also over self-compiling
users).

[1] OTOH you are not the only one -- hello Gilles Caulier!

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Milian Wolff at 03/12/2013 - 05:17

On Saturday 09 March 2013 12:13:08 Pino Toscano wrote:
Pino, could you please respond to Sven's last email? Please confirm, that your
reasonings above are unchanged even though we are speaking about a fork of the
*parser* not of the full python library (i.e. no code is executed!).

If you are really still against merging a parser fork, then what do you
propose to do? Esp. considering that Sven already tried to contact the Python
developers multiple of times?

Cheers

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Sven Brauch at 03/09/2013 - 08:48

Hi Pino,

considering kdev-python is only using the Parser part of python, this
is actually all that has changed in the two years between 2.7.1 and
2.7.3:
<a href="http://paste.kde.org/691184/" title="http://paste.kde.org/691184/">http://paste.kde.org/691184/</a>
As far as I can see, there's not a single change which would affect
the behavior of kdev-python in any way. And I do not expect such
changes to happen in further maintenance releases -- after all,
they're maintenance releases for fixing bugs, and the Python 2.7
*parser* code does not exactly have hundreds of bugs. And, since
Python 2 is dead anyways, no non-maintenance releases are going to
happen.

If it was only about this -- I could easily keep the fork updated with
the 2.7.x releases. But, as said, I don't really see a point, since
it's not going to affect kdev-python anyways. I see even less reason
for why anyone other than me should ever want to do such an update,
since it will most likely be a) irrelevant for kdev-python or b) do
some changes which would actually affect kdev-python, but would then
need updates to kdev-python itself since it's very tightly integrated
with the parser code.

Still, altough I don't agree with the two points you raised, I see
your overall problem with this, and you can rest assured that I'm very
much interested in getting the fork removed as soon as possible too
(see my previous emails). So, if this is your last word, I'm going to
move kdev-python back to playground, wait for the Python 3.4 release,
and start the whole review process once again. It's not really going
to change much -- most distributions will still package kdev-python
and the fork is not going to be removed any sooner. It's just a bit
more annoying.

I'm not angry or anything, after all this is a review and if there was
no negative outcomes then it would be pretty pointless. I just wished
you would list reasons I could agree with -- there's the general "a
fork is a horrible solution", which I totally agree with, but which is
a rather philosophical point. I'm still missing an example of a real
world situation where this fork specifically would be a problem.

Best regards,
Sven

2013/3/9 Pino Toscano < ... at kde dot org>:

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Pino Toscano at 03/12/2013 - 05:57

Hi,

Alle sabato 9 marzo 2013, Sven Brauch ha scritto:
And the rest of the Python library API, like the stuff in Python/* and
Object/*?

Bugs, leaks, and any kind of issue don't need to "affect kdev-python" to
be problematic.
Assuming you need to cherry-pick later some bugfix from python 2.7.x,
what do you do if that backporting cannot be done because the code has
changed in the meanwhile, and your code is still years behind?

"people will package it" is not really an excuse for "allow broken
ways".

You are misreading my words: I never said that "a fork is a horrible
solution" in general, but I was referring, in this case, to the
libpython fork you did.

(And WTF does it mean «I just wished you would list reasons I could
agree with», that my reasons are valid as long as you agree with them?)

There were many, provided by Sune Vuorela or myself, in various emails
of this and the intial review thread [1].

[1] «Review of kdev-python for move to extragear»

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Todd at 03/12/2013 - 06:45

Those aren't being used. Only the parser is used.

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Sven Brauch at 03/12/2013 - 09:15

Hi,

I just want to emphasize this again: During the time I'm working on
kdev-python, I will *never* be able to write a parser which is
comparably secure and bug-free to the current solution with the fork.

Also, I want to repeat that I already contacted the python people, and
that it's very likely that the issue causing the patch will be
resolved upstream. Thus, with the release of python 3.4, the fork
would disappear anyways. (backporting is not possible since the patch
involves binary incompatible changes)

Best regards,
Sven

2013/3/12 Todd < ... at gmail dot com>:

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Sven Brauch at 03/20/2013 - 05:27

Hi,

my patch to python [1] was merged recently, so I could start working
on porting kdev-python away from the python fork. [2] is a branch
which is up-to-date with master and works without the fork, it just
links against the system's python 3.4. It's not perfect yet, but
neither was the old python 3 support branch. As soon as Python 3.4 is
released, this brach will be the default.

Since the patch contains (binary and source) incompatible changes, it
cannot be backported to python 2. Thus, the python 2 version of the
plugin will have to stay with the fork for the remainder of its
lifetime.

It's not going to get much better than this. If we can't move this to
extragear now, then I don't see why we could do it anywhere in the
near future. Also there's really nothing more I can do about it now.

Please let me know what you think.

Greetings,
Sven

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Albert Astals Cid at 03/20/2013 - 15:20

El Dimecres, 20 de març de 2013, a les 10:27:55, Sven Brauch va escriure:
I know Pino has voiced a negative opinion about the python 2 fork being in
there, and he obviously should be heard, but i'd like to listen more opinions
in particular the ones of the extragear-kdevelop "module" (Aleix? Milian?).

I mean what can't be fixed, can't be fixed. At the end if Pino thinks the
python 2 fork is insecure he's always free to not package it in Debian.

Opinions?

Cheers,
Albert

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Milian Wolff at 03/21/2013 - 07:40

On Wednesday 20 March 2013 20:20:19 Albert Astals Cid wrote:
I think I never explicitly stated my opinion in this thread: +1 from my side
in moving this forward, esp. considering that Sven did everything in his power
to improve the situation. Considering that the stuff is even accepted upstream
finally we can look forward to a bright future.

Cheers

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Sven Brauch at 04/03/2013 - 04:53

Hi list,

kdev-python has been in kdereview for almost four months now, and
still no decision has been reached. Since I'm the person asking for
review, I can't decide anything.
What's the policy for a reviewed application when there's voices for
and against accepting it? If the application should be rejected, then
so be it, but you'll have to state that clearly (five persons telling
me it's good and one person telling me it's not doesn't really allow
me to take any action).

Somebody has to tell me what to do here, or else nothing will happen.

Cheers,
Sven

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Albert Astals Cid at 04/03/2013 - 13:16

El Dimecres, 3 d'abril de 2013, a les 10:53:32, Sven Brauch va escriure:
5:1 and the kdevelop people saying yes, that's a yes.

Move it there.

Cheers,
Albert

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Sven Brauch at 04/04/2013 - 05:24

Hi,

kdev-python has been moved to extragear.
<a href="https://projects.kde.org/projects/extragear/kdevelop/plugins/kdev-python" title="https://projects.kde.org/projects/extragear/kdevelop/plugins/kdev-python">https://projects.kde.org/projects/extragear/kdevelop/plugins/kdev-python</a>
Thank you for your support.

Cheers,
Sven

2013/4/3 Albert Astals Cid < ... at kde dot org>:

Re: Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Martin =?ISO-88... at 04/03/2013 - 10:43

Hi,

I don't know whether there are rules for such cases, but I would say in such a
situation it should be decided by the relevant developer team - that is
kdevelop. I don't see how I as a workspace developer can properly judge the
situation.

Given the thread I see a clear "yes" from the kdevelop team.

Cheers
Martin

On Wednesday 03 April 2013 10:53:32 Sven Brauch wrote:

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Aleix Pol at 04/03/2013 - 10:32

Hi,
I'd say it's ok for you to move it. If there are ideas on how to actually
fix the issues, we have plenty of channels to keep improving kdev-python,
starting from the kdevelop-devel mailing list and bugs.kde.org.

Aleix

On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Sven Brauch < ... at googlemail dot com>wrote:

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Alexander Dymo at 03/20/2013 - 18:13

If I was Sven, I'd drop Python2 support. But it's his call. I also think kdev-python should go forward.

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Todd at 03/20/2013 - 19:03

Definitely not. Python 2 still has a huge user base, and there is a lot of
python software that will take years to port to python 3, if it will be
ported at all. It might be worth considering dropping support down the
road, but right now python 2 is still the default in many Linux distros, it
is still the only option for many windows python suites, is still the
standard for most scientific applications, and is still the standard for
most web servers. We are only a few weeks into having django support
python 3, for example.

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Aleix Pol at 03/20/2013 - 15:43

Python source code inclusion has been discussed in different occasions,
even sprints. My opinion is that it's a too bad that his attempts to get
the changes in Python to upstream failed, but I don't want this to be the
reason for Sven's work not being available to our users. It would be a
shame.

I think kdev-python should go forward, and if there are practical problems,
we'll have to deal with them.

Aleix

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Milian Wolff at 03/12/2013 - 06:45

On Tuesday 12 March 2013 10:57:57 Pino Toscano wrote:
Afaik: That is semantically analized to extract information like
documentation, code completion information etc. pp. Comparable to
phpfunctions.php in the kdev-php plugin.

Sven, can you confirm that?

I thought the big concern here is security? Any "mundane" bugs like leaks etc.
pp. don't need to be any of your concern here, or? I mean assuming Sven
updates the checkout regularily these will be fixed eventually. I'd simply see
it as a bug in kdev-python. And comparing that to the amount of bugs you'd get
by writing your own python parser it is probably a good pick.

Cheers

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Albert Astals Cid at 03/09/2013 - 10:44

El Dissabte, 9 de març de 2013, a les 12:13:08, Pino Toscano va escriure:
So what is your solution? Kill him? Make him wait 1 year before he can release
his software? I agree this is not optimal, but if there is no other way to do
it, then there's no other way to do it, or would you block kpdf on the basis
that it embedded xpdf code?

Cheers,
Albert

Re: kdev-python move to extragear -- once more

By Sven Brauch at 03/08/2013 - 18:53

Hey,

this is still not resolved. If I'm not hearing any objection soon-ish,
then I'll assume you're okay with moving kdev-python to extragear, and
continue working on the python fork issue from there. Python 3.4 is
scheduled for early 2014, and I think the python people's idea of
merging my patch is "somewhere before the feature freeze for this
release", so it might take a while -- far too long to keep kdev-python
stuck in kdereview.

Cheers,
Sven

2013/2/16 Sven Brauch < ... at googlemail dot com>: