DevHeads.net

remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

Hi all,

[For the sake of sanity, please reply to both list, this topic affects
applications and Plasma.]

One of the topics we are discussing at the current Plasma sprint is whether we
really want khelpcenter as part of the Plasma releases in the future. Some
data points:

- khelpcenter is unmaintained, it has seen a rough port to KF5, but has
otherwise seen zero love, this shows
- just dropping it would mean that the user gets sent to a webpage containing
the latest version of the documentation, so khelpcenter's usecase is
actually just being an offline cache, fallback mechanism are already in place
- said user documentation is spotty, this is only semi-related, but still
doesn't exactly make a strong case for keeping it
- it uses KHTML

A casual poll among developers here at the sprint reveals that ~70% would
rather see it gone from Plasma, the rest abstains. Nobody from my (admittedly
small) sample really wants to keep it.

Killing it could mean that we remove it entirely (to unmaintained), or if
anybody is interested in maintaining it making it part of Applications, or
Extragear.

Let's seriously think about dropping it from Plasma 5.7 and onwards. If
anybody is hell-bent on keeping it, this person should consider maintaining it
as well. Unmaintained code in Plasma is not cool, and so far nobody seems to
care enough to step up.

Cheers,

Comments

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Yuri Chornoivan at 03/09/2016 - 11:43

написане Wed, 09 Mar 2016 17:29:28 +0200, Sebastian Kügler < ... at kde dot org>:

Hi,

Just of curiosity, what is the next thing, after documentation (as Plasma
almost does not have it), to get rid from Plasma? Is it Okular, Krusader,
something else? Just to make simple, sleek and unintrusive.

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Best regards,
Yuri

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Marco Martin at 03/09/2016 - 12:24

On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Yuri Chornoivan < ... at ukr dot net> wrote:
None of those examples is part of the workspace (is like wondering if
Gwenview is part of K3b), they are excellent applications released on
their own, so the problem does not apply.

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Martin =?ISO-88... at 03/09/2016 - 12:20

Am 2016-03-09 16:43, schrieb Yuri Chornoivan:
Neither Okular, nor Krusader are part of Plasma. So what is that? Trying
to create a flamewar?

This is highly non-constructive, highly disrespectful towards the
developers caring about our user experience. This is absolutely not
acceptable.

Seriosuly pissed
Martin

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Martin Klapetek at 03/09/2016 - 12:24

I think there's a simple misunderstanding here.

Sebas meant removing the code from plasma repo in order to not having
to maintain the code as part of plasma-the-code while Yuri probably thought
this is about removing it from plasma-the-shell, ie. from kicker/kickoff
etc.

Cheers

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Yuri Chornoivan at 03/09/2016 - 12:37

написане Wed, 09 Mar 2016 18:24:59 +0200, Martin Klapetek
<martin. ... at gmail dot com>:

Yes. That's what I meant.

But generally, I cannot say that I like the way the things are going. The
UserBase project does not have significant updates on applications pages
(although it was claimed that users are willing to write docs online),
there is a trend to sweep docs under the carpet, move them online, cut off
docs from applications, compile and package without docs, release without
docs at all. That's not pretty and fair.

Sorry for being too rough. Please forgive me.

Best regards,
Yuri

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Sebastian =?utf... at 04/01/2016 - 09:38

Hi Yuri,

On Wednesday, March 09, 2016 06:37:09 PM Yuri Chornoivan wrote:
Being rough is fine, as long as you're also specific and constructive. You're
not, so your being rough is just a useless rant, not something anybody can
really work with.

How about you point out concrete problems and solutions for them? Most of us
are not here for listening to rants, but want to actually improve something.
Don't poison the atmosphere for those people.

The effect of your email (having written docs quite extensively in the past
year) is that you're generalizing way too much, to the point I feel offended
(and stupid for doing the unrecognized work in the first place).

Cheers,

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By R.Harish Navnit at 03/30/2016 - 04:44

​Hi,​

On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 10:07 PM, Yuri Chornoivan < ... at ukr dot net> wrote:
Obviously, I haven't looked at whole of userbase and you might be able to
find cases where I am wrong. But having said that, I agree, that userbase
needs some love, but I don't think bringing that up in this thread is a
good idea. I strongly urge you to create a new thread to discuss this and
let's try to arrive at a solution.

​[1]
<a href="http://blogs.churlaud.com/somefoobar/2016/03/17/sprint-at-cern-things-got-done/" title="http://blogs.churlaud.com/somefoobar/2016/03/17/sprint-at-cern-things-got-done/">http://blogs.churlaud.com/somefoobar/2016/03/17/sprint-at-cern-things-go...</a>

Thanks,
R.Harish Navnit
The Enigma <http://harishnavnit.wordpress.com>

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Sebastian =?utf... at 03/09/2016 - 12:17

On Wednesday, March 09, 2016 17:43:37 Yuri Chornoivan wrote:
Yuri, this is an discussion between developers, and your email doesn't meet
the requirement of being constructive or respectful. Please change your
attitude or refrain from further commenting.

If you're unsure, read <a href="https://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/" title="https://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/">https://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/</a>

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Albert Astals Cid at 03/09/2016 - 15:31

El Wednesday 09 March 2016, a les 15:29:28, Sebastian Kügler va escriure:
<a href="https://github.com/KDE/khelpcenter/commits/master" title="https://github.com/KDE/khelpcenter/commits/master">https://github.com/KDE/khelpcenter/commits/master</a>
shows some commits

Getting "the latest version of the documentation" may actually be a problem,
you don't want to get the latest version of the documentation that speaks
about features and buttons you don't see becaue your version doesn't have, you
want to get the documentation for the version you are using.

As Okular maintainer, I disagree we should stop shipping khelpcenter, I want
Okular users to be able to see the documentation without hitting the web.

If you want to move it from Plasma releases to KDE Applications releases, I
think that's ok, it probably even makes more sense in there since in my
opinion it is not really desktop related anyway.

Cheers,
Albert

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Luigi Toscano at 03/09/2016 - 12:05

On Wednesday 09 of March 2016 15:29:28 Sebastian Kügler wrote:
There is a non-committed work to have search working again, which will cut the
bug list. You should have probably already noticed a bunch of commits which
fixes some language related issues.

Apart from that, I see a continued push to remove support for non-connected
users. I still think that there is a value in that, but no one seems to agree
with that.

Moreover, khelpcenter is not just for *our* documentation, but to access also
other documentation on the system.

That said, I perceive this email as "khelpcenter is not welcome in Plasma",
probably with a maintainer ("hell-bent on keeping it" sounds very negative to
me). So not sure what should be the discussion about.

Again, please recheck the recent list of commits.

Ciao

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Sebastian =?utf... at 03/09/2016 - 12:16

On Wednesday, March 09, 2016 17:05:14 Luigi Toscano wrote:
The discussion is about removing it from Plasma releases starting with 5.7,
see the subject of my email.

Let me cut right to the chase, do you want to maintain it? Does it need to be
in Plasma?

You're right that Plasma devs don't seem to want it, I thought my initial
email made that pretty clear. We do think that disconnected systems are rather
a fringe case, and that our time and effort is better spent on other things.

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Luigi Toscano at 03/09/2016 - 12:30

On Wednesday 09 of March 2016 16:16:54 Sebastian Kügler wrote:

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Sebastian =?utf... at 03/09/2016 - 12:50

On Wednesday, March 09, 2016 17:30:01 Luigi Toscano wrote:
Ah OK, sorry for misunderstanding it.

I think there are the following options:

1) keeping it in Plasma with maintainer
2) keeping it outside of Plasma with maintainer
3) moving it to unmaintained (that's basically killing it)
4) keeping the status quo (not wanted)

My personal preference would be an optional component (hence Extragear), since
I think that the vast majority of users has web access, so khelpcenter isn't
necessary and only adds to our maintainance burden without much gain in those
cases.

If we can move from 4) to 1) (so status quo but with maintainer), that would
already be an improvement of course.

The question mark was honest, we haven't made a decision on it, but different
people do have expressed a preference for not shipping it (as or by default in
Plasma releases). We may have missed important points, and we don't want to
just kick things out unilaterally.

Cheers,

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Luigi Toscano at 03/09/2016 - 13:18

On Wednesday 09 of March 2016 16:50:39 Sebastian Kügler wrote:
My offer stands and we can rule out 4) and 3).
Note that 2) could also mean a move to Applications (from your point of view
it does not matter too much).
The case 1) shouldn't add maintenance anyway as the maintainer is identified.

I think we can leave some time for other people to comment. The shortest
deadline of all possibilities is the one for moving into Applications, and
there are still 8 days before the dependency freeze and two weeks before the
branch.

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Luigi Toscano at 03/15/2016 - 18:11

Luigi Toscano ha scritto:
Any other comment from anyone else?

Ciao

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Luigi Toscano at 03/16/2016 - 19:18

Luigi Toscano ha scritto:
I think I made up my mind. If no one else objects further, I officially ask
the release team (in CC) if it is possible to accept khelpcenter as part of
Applications for the upcoming release 16.04, module "applications". No
dependency changes are planned for the current master branch khelpcenter for now.

We will have a bit of overlap for a while (khelpcenter/Plasma5.6 vs
khelpcenter/Applications16.04), but the version number from Applications is
higher, so it shouldn't be a problem for packagers (they already handled the
more complicated khelpcenter/kde-runtime vs khelpcenter/Plasma).

If this is accepted, I will manage the various tickets with sysadmins (and at
least move the translations myself).

Ciao

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Albert Astals Cid at 03/19/2016 - 12:59

El dijous, 17 de març de 2016, a les 0:18:53 CET, Luigi Toscano va escriure:
No objections from my side, please get a decision+moved tuesday the latest.

Cheers,
Albert

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Marco Martin at 03/21/2016 - 12:05

On Saturday 19 March 2016, Albert Astals Cid wrote:
ok for us too..
something we need to do from our side?

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Aaron Honeycutt at 03/17/2016 - 07:54

Kubuntu uses it for our Documentation but our current tools do have a PDF
export option as well as epub so we could use a different tool to read
those files without khelpcenter. I do thank every developer for his/her
work and current work on that package!

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 7:19 PM Luigi Toscano <luigi. ... at tiscali dot it>
wrote:

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Luigi Toscano at 03/17/2016 - 11:31

On Thursday 17 of March 2016 11:54:31 Aaron Honeycutt wrote:
Why use a different tool? KHelpCenter is (mostly) simply changing the release
schedule...

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Jeremy Paul Whiting at 03/15/2016 - 19:52

As an application developer I agree it makes sense to have khelpcenter
released with KDE Applications. I also agree with Albert's point that
having online documentation isn't the best since it could be newer
than what's actually running. People using LTS distributions or
"stable" variants of less often released distributions will have very
old (to those of us that run from git) versions of stuff. Having
online documentation for plasma 5.7 to look at while you're running
plasma 4 would just confuse.

Also, thanks Luigi for stepping up to maintain it.

BR,
Jeremy

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Luigi Toscano <luigi. ... at tiscali dot it> wrote:

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Sebastian =?utf... at 03/16/2016 - 08:46

On Tuesday, March 15, 2016 05:52:55 PM Jeremy Whiting wrote:
This can be solved, of course, by having versioned documentation online and
point to that.

+1

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Albert Astals Cid at 03/18/2016 - 14:30

El dimecres, 16 de març de 2016, a les 12:46:34 CET, Sebastian Kügler va
escriure:
Sure, but needs someone to develop and maintain that code, while a local
KHelpCenter is something we already have developed and maintainer for ;)

Cheers,
Albert

Re: remove khelpcenter from next Plasma release?

By Marco Martin at 03/09/2016 - 12:13

On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Luigi Toscano <luigi. ... at tiscali dot it> wrote:

thanks for stepping up in the maintainership of KHelpCenter