Flame war police

Hiya everyone,

Is there a way to disable a thread that has degenerated into flaming? The
recent "discussion" on /var/run descended into some quite nasty places and
perhaps a lid should have been put on it. This seems to happen every few
weeks and is somewhat embarrassing when I'm trying to persuade people of
the "active and friendly Centos community"

It was a shame that no one actually read past the belligerence his original
post enough to come up with a solution. It was quite clearly a problem with
third party packages not coming with SELinux policies.




Re: Flame war police

By Leon Fauster at 10/10/2017 - 11:22

Am 10.10.2017 um 17:03 schrieb Andrew Holway <andrew. ... at gmail dot com>:

A community has always at least "17%" of unpleasant behaviour - thats natural! The
other part is very "active and friendly". Everything else is not realistic. :-)

Re: Flame war police

By Mark Haney at 10/10/2017 - 11:22

On 10/10/2017 11:03 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:
Let me ask, would you allow your kids to do something that was obviously
dangerous?  This is the same thing.  We're here to guide those willing
to learn the /best/ method of resolving problems. Some aren't willing to
learn and refuse to believe the majority here know what we're talking
about.  The true answer to OPs question wasn't what he wanted to hear
and continued ad nauseum to insist that's what he wants to do. 
Sometimes people just have to fail to learn.

Most of us make a living in IT, and get paid to do things within the
parameters of the systems we manage.  How hard is it to understand such
a simple concept? What you insist on calling a flame war, was some of
us, me included, trying to get people to understand that 1) OP is wrong
trying to do it this way 2) that OPs package wasn't standard CentOS
packaging and was dangerous to use on CentOS systems and 3) that there's
no way any of us would offer a work around for something that will
almost certainly result in lost data.

OP appeared, to me at least,  to be quite immature in insisting going
against how CentOS (and RHEL) is designed and would very likely have
come back to the list raising hell over losing data and how it's our
fault for his inability to listen to us. Don't you think that would have
been a bigger blow to the 'active and friendly community' if we'd
actually offered advice contrary to design/best practice?  Would you
take advice from someone you know has given dangerous advice in the past?

We have this discussion on every list I've ever been, or currently are
on about every 6 months or so.  I do my best to contribute to the list
as often as I can, but I can't help people when they are deadset on
doing dangerous things.  Posts like his, and posts like yours make it
harder for me to bother trying to help those unwilling to listen.  I
don't take it from my children, and I certainly won't from adults who
won't listen.

Re: Flame war police

By Lamar Owen at 10/11/2017 - 14:44

On 10/10/2017 11:22 AM, Mark Haney wrote:
The core issue in the /var/run thread is one of lack of civility. There
is a civil way of calling someone to see their need for further thought
and investigation; calling someone 'stupid' or 'an idiot' over something
as small as /var/run directory persistence is, to my mind at least, its
own brand of immaturity and will typically cause the person so being
attacked to go on the defensive and harden their stance, and this is the
textbook genesis of a flame.

I've been involved in Unix and related pursuits long enough to know that
different people consider different things to be polite.  And I've said
my share of impolite things, especially back in the day when I had a
Usenet leaf node over uucp and participated in news.admin and alt.flame,
so I'm not being self-righteous here, just practical and realistic. 
I've been plonked before, and I've plonked before.  (If anyone isn't
familiar with the term 'plonk' it means to put in your killfile or
ignore list, and there are a few people that have been on this list that
I have killfiled in the past, several especially right around the
releases of CentOS 5.6 and CentOS 6.0).

So, for the last several years, I have set a protocol for myself where,
if words that would be considered uncivil by most people were present in
my post, or if my wording became too much of an attack over the person,
I simply don't send it.  My wife and I have five children, so I'm more
than a little familiar with a certain rabbit named Thumper and his
famous adage "f you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at
all."  Now, I don't agree with that adage as written, as I would rather
use the word 'civil' instead of 'nice,' because 'civil' doesn't mean
nice.  Civil just means 'not nasty' even when you need to have 'Radical
Candor.'  But I reserve that sort of 'harsh civility' for my staff here
when necessary, who get a much more civil tone than my children at home
would, incidentally. But my staff aren't children.  And the members of
this list aren't my staff, and I will be civil to everyone on this list.

I'll drop a brief note about my opinion of /var/run later, so that
anyone who wants to ignore that thread before I post can do so.

Re: Flame war police

By Mark Haney at 10/11/2017 - 16:05

On 10/11/2017 02:44 PM, Lamar Owen wrote:
Anyway, hope all is well with you and PARI.  I need to get back down
there with telescope sometime, the light pollution in RDU is just awful.

Re: Flame war police

By Lamar Owen at 10/11/2017 - 18:17

On 10/11/2017 04:05 PM, Mark Haney wrote:
Yeah, too long.  Come by and visit some time.

I'm Irish, too, and that's why I have to set the protocol for myself
that I do, and many times I'll let a post sit in a compose window half
the day before I cancel it (or send it, as the case may be). I've had to
perform podondectomies too many times..... (surgical removal of foot
from mouth.....) If you never put the foot in your mouth, you never have
to remove it.

Ok, fair enough.  And I wasn't singling you out by any means; since I
actually know you personally I figured you wouldn't mind my using your
post as the reply point.
But maybe I'm just too fatigued these days.  I just get tired of
dragging anchors and pushing chains.

Let's take any more replies off-list, though.

Re: Flame war police

By Valeri Galtsev at 10/10/2017 - 11:32

On Tue, October 10, 2017 10:22 am, Mark Haney wrote:
Thanks, Mark! Not only I agree with all you said, but these were the same
points that I was seeing in this whole thread. The OP gave me the same
feeling as I have when sometimes someone comes to me to fix their system,
and when I start doing what I see necessary starts direct me what I should
do next. Which brings these feelings: you already failed to fix it
yourself, that is why you came to get me do that, now step back and
observe how it is done...


Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

Re: Flame war police

By Giles Coochey at 10/10/2017 - 11:10

On 10/10/2017 16:03, Andrew Holway wrote: