DevHeads.net

Am I the only one who missed the election?

I just saw the Fedora election results, and was surprised to learn there
had been an election. After some digging I figured out what happened.

Robyn sends her announce emails to: announce@, devel-announce@,
test-announce@

I saw the nomination email and the election results email, but no
announcement of the elections being open.

This is because Ankur Sinha didn't send the announcement to the same set
of lists. I am apparently not on announce, only on devel-announce

Emails like this should see a wide distribution, at the *least* they
should be sent to the same set of lists that the other related emails
are sent to. I suspect that the election turnout would have been greater
if this had happened.

Comments

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Richard Vickery at 12/10/2012 - 17:56

Brian's comments sound a lot like those that I made to another email group
that I was once part of - email may be awesome for communication, but it is
a truly horrible avenue for conducting parliamentary business of any sort,
the least of which are elections and voting. If there were money involved,
some parties could possibly be sued.

Richard

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Adam Williamson at 12/10/2012 - 20:07

On Mon, 2012-12-10 at 13:56 -0800, Richard Vickery wrote:
Fedora don't conduct election business of any sort via email. But since
email is probably the #1 means of communication within the Fedora
project, elections are *publicised* via email (as well as various other
methods).

Your mail seems to imply the conclusion "...and thus we should not
announce elections via email", which doesn't seem like something anyone
would welcome. :)

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Benjamin Lewis at 12/11/2012 - 06:02

Speaking from experience (in this case running elections for the Union
Society... ever a fun occupation!) you can never really have too much
publicity surrounding an election.

That being said, what it is important to do is define clearly, in the
rules governing the election, where the election *must* be announced.
Then the onus slightly shifts: if someone wants to know about elections
they should take some care to ensure they are subscribed to whatever
list is used for that purpose. I would recommend the announce list
and the wiki.

Every other communication should then contain a 'disclaimer' (to use a
bad term) noting that the official notice is always on the announce list
and that that notice is authoritative. Ditto for lists of candidates, how
to vote, results, etc.

There is absolutely no harm in announcing/publicising elections in more
than one place, but all those messages should point back or refer to the
official notice.

The important consequence of this is that if one of the 'courtesy'
messages is missed during a particular election then that should not
invalidate the election in any way.

Now, as for whether members of FAS/cla_done/<your favourite metric here>
should be auto-subscribed to something. In principle, this would seem
like a good idea. The traffic on the announce list is very low and if
devel-announce, test-announce, etc. is used correctly everything posted should actually be of interest to
pretty much all of FAS and/or cla_done.

[On a slight, but nice side note, range voting is so much better than
FPTP or AV :-)]

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By inode0 at 12/10/2012 - 11:59

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Brian C. Lane < ... at redhat dot com> wrote:
Looks like it was sent to the devel list as well.

<a href="http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-December/174779.html" title="http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-December/174779.html">http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-December/174779.html</a>

People working on the elections certainly try to make the community
aware of the elections. Unfortunately we never seem to be able to get
everyone's attention.

John

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Kevin Kofler at 12/11/2012 - 11:58

inode0 wrote:
One issue is that the voting period is just too short. This time, I found
out about the elections 6-7 minutes after they had ended. I had also been
burned in some previous elections by the deadline, wanting to make up my
mind about whom to vote for, and by the time I had, they were already over.
I think they should be open for at least 2 weeks, I don't see a good reason
for the rush.

Kevin Kofler

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By inode0 at 12/11/2012 - 12:04

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Kevin Kofler <kevin. ... at chello dot at> wrote:
Funny how people see things differently. I have always thought there
should be a shorter window to vote since most votes happen at the very
beginning or at the very end of the period. No matter how long we
stretch out the middle nothing much happens vote-wise then. Of course
I understand people could be considering matters deciding how to vote
during that period. I do suspect that if 8 days isn't enough neither
will 14 days as people will just put off dealing with it for that much
longer.

John

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Michael Schwendt at 12/10/2012 - 12:25

417 messages in December so far! Too easy to miss the announcement,
if one doesn't pay attention to that list for some time. Even if it's just
for a few days, the elections are not open long enough.

Well, could you *please* decide on a list (or a well-defined set of lists)
where to announce _future_ elections for sure?

It may be helpful to analyze what has gone wrong this time, but that's
useless if no attempts are made at trying to improve for the next
election.

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Jaroslav Reznik at 12/10/2012 - 12:35

I really like to see all contributors subscribed to one announce list.
And I was surprised when I realized, after four years in Fedora, that
announce list is optional (maybe I did not need it as I still have
start.fpo as homepage) - just when I tried to sent an announcement and
it was rejected... Elections reminder should receiver every contributor
with CLA.

For your question - how the lists are used - usually based on when
sender sends it. All announce lists are moderated.

Jaroslav

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Eric "Sparks" C... at 12/10/2012 - 13:31

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 11:35:52AM -0500, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
While not a list, there is a way to send messages to FAS groups. Perhaps this should be done?

- -Eric

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By inode0 at 12/10/2012 - 12:33

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Michael Schwendt < ... at gmail dot com> wrote:
Right and the sad truth is that busy people will miss announcements
even if they are sent to every single Fedora list.

Well, the main announce list seems safe doesn't it?

I'm happy to try to improve it and I agree it would have been better
to have sent it to the other announce lists as well. But I do not
think that will prevent someone from missing it in the future.

John

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Michael Schwendt at 12/10/2012 - 14:18

Well, that's not specific to announcement mails. Some people miss
everything, ranging from incoming bugzilla reports, dist git commits,
to personal mail.

Perhaps you should return to the first post that started this thread.

And there is no need to post to "every single Fedora list". Let's use the
_low-traffic_ moderated lists more appropriately. *I* don't mind adjusting
my subscription of "announce" list and adjusting the procmail recipe,
even if subscribing devel-announce is mandatory for packagers. Hopefully
it will be announced whether the next election announcement will move to
even another list.

Safe? In which way? It's opt-in. Unlike devel-announce, which is mandatory.
What about all devel-announce subscribers, who expect to receive
election announcements as before?

Reminder: Voting has begun in Fedora Board, FAmSCo, and FESCo elections,
ends June 7th
<a href="http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel-announce/2012-June/000937.html" title="http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel-announce/2012-June/000937.html">http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel-announce/2012-June/000937...</a>

If announcement move to announce list, it would make sense to announce
that on devel-announce. ;-)

This thread (and my one on test list) are because we were expected
to learn about the election by paying attention to devel-announce
where previous elections have been announced.

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By inode0 at 12/10/2012 - 14:55

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 12:18 PM, Michael Schwendt < ... at gmail dot com> wrote:
I wasn't suggesting announcements should go to every list. I was
pointing out that no matter where they are made some people will miss
them. It happens every election and I'm quite sure it will happen in
every future election.

If you want one list to subscribe to to make sure you see the
announcement that one should be safe. Have elections ever not been
announced on that list? (I think devel-announce should be a subscriber
to announce which would cover both anyway.)

Ok. As I said I would have preferred that it went to that list too.
I'm sure those involved in making announcements will create an SOP so
the announcement will go wherever people find it useful. But at the
same time I think we should also note that the election bits were
widely announced and for each of the last two elections, regardless of
the devel-announce list, we have heard from one person who didn't
notice them.

My recommendation at this point is to guarantee the announcement will
go to the main announce list. You can be sure you will get it if you
subscribe to that. We will also announce it all over the place as we
always do, on various mailing lists, blogs, social media outlets, etc.
in an attempt to catch the eye of anyone who happens to be watching.

John

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Michael Schwendt at 12/10/2012 - 15:35

Much appreciated. Thanks, John!

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Eric "Sparks" C... at 12/10/2012 - 18:11

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 08:35:33PM +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
I know that a ticket has been opened for this for the Board to review. It should be discussed during Wednesday's meeting and hopefully a quick standardization will be made.

In my opinion, this shouldn't be a difficult fix. There needs to be a specific person (position) that takes care of this and the announcement should be made in a manner that covers the most ground and is the same ground that is covered every time so it's predictable so people know that they will receive the information they need because they are signed up for the proper list or are looking at the correct website.

I'm sure someone from the Board will respond to this thread after Wednesday's meeting.

- -Eric "Sparks"

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Jaroslav Reznik at 12/10/2012 - 11:10

I think this is not good - every contributor should be subscribed to
announce list (with cla_done).

I agree. Looking on Robyn's statistics, seems it wasn't affected
compared to F18 elections but definitely - more votes, better. Still
I'd like to say thanks to Ankur as it was probably worst possible time
to begin as Election Wrangler - from scheduling side etc.

Jaroslav

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Peter Jones at 12/10/2012 - 11:16

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 10:10:54AM -0500, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
So you're blaming people who didn't recieve the email they expected on
devel-announce@ for not recieving it? Seems pretty off.

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Jaroslav Reznik at 12/10/2012 - 11:20

No, definitely not - I missed forgot one important word - automatically
subscribed when members of CLA group.

Sorry for confusion.

Jaroslav

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Michael Schwendt at 12/10/2012 - 11:25

<a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join_the_package_collection_maintainers#Join_the_important_Mailing_Lists" title="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join_the_package_collection_maintainers#Join_the_important_Mailing_Lists">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join_the_package_collection_maintainers#J...</a>

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Ian Malone at 12/10/2012 - 11:28

On 10 December 2012 15:25, Michael Schwendt < ... at gmail dot com> wrote:
It's probably sensible to be subscribed to announce if you're a
contributor, but not all contributors are package maintainers, so this
isn't quite sufficient.

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Michael Schwendt at 12/10/2012 - 12:02

Did anyone claim that? - No.

Years ago I've suggested creating a list where to address all contributors.
One list that would be mandatory to subscribe to.
Not multiple lists.

Examining the list archives of devel-announce (which packagers MUST be
subscribed to) and comparing with announce, the purpose of these lists
does not become clear. For example:

<a href="http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/announce/2012-October/date.html" title="http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/announce/2012-October/date.html">http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/announce/2012-October/date.html</a>
-> two announcements about Changes to the Packaging Guidelines

That's a very specific topic for the "Announcements related to the
Fedora Project" list, isn't it?

The same posts have been sent to devel-announce, too. Should they
have been posted *only* to devel-announce perhaps? What is the target
group of "announce" list?

On the contrary, "Smolt retirement" has been sent to announce list only,
but not to devel-announce. Same for "FAS update". It's strange that
subscribing to the mandatory list, devel-announce, is insufficient.
And e.g. Fedora Users, who subscribed to "announce" would receive
announcements related to packaging guidelines.

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Ian Malone at 12/10/2012 - 13:29

On 10 December 2012 16:02, Michael Schwendt < ... at gmail dot com> wrote:
Sorry, I misunderstood. You mailed with only a link to a page for
people wishing to become package maintainers and the section listing
mailing lists that package maintainers should be subscribed to. It
seemed you were suggesting that as a solution to the problem. Your
follow up email makes it clearer that you were intending to take a
very different position (that there are too many lists with not well
enough defined purposes), but it's hard to extract that from this link
only.

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Kevin Fenzi at 12/10/2012 - 12:31

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:02:46 +0100

I fear that has a number of problems:

a) people HATE having to opt-out of something like that. They much
prefer opt in.

b) a large number of people would opt out.

c) how do you define 'contributor' ?

Perhaps whatever says "as a packager you must subscribe to
devel-announce" should be amended to also include announce.

I agree, those emails should go to only devel-announce.

That was of general note to all Fedora folks, not specifically to
developers.

Many parts of the project use fas, not just package maintainers.

I'd say you should be subscribed to both.

kevin

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Kevin Fenzi at 12/10/2012 - 12:35

Or, as another thought:

announce - general announcements for all of fedora

devel-announce - only announcements that have to do with package
maintainers/developers.

and then make sure the announce posts also post to the devel-announce
list, as thats a subset and we want everyone to get those in addition
to just the devel ones.

kevin

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By =?UTF-8?B?IkrDs... at 12/10/2012 - 12:31

On 12/10/2012 04:31 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
Active fas account...

JBG

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Jaroslav Reznik at 12/10/2012 - 12:42

So cla_done as it's requirement for elections (Board, FAmSCo) -
at least it should suit elections announcement.

R.

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Adam Williamson at 12/10/2012 - 19:51

On Mon, 2012-12-10 at 11:42 -0500, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
You can do quite a lot of stuff in Fedora without signing CLA. Including
every single QA function, I think. Really, cla_done is pretty specific
to 'creating distribution content'.

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Jaroslav Reznik at 12/11/2012 - 06:11

It is more about election audience - you need cla_done. So for
this, it's ok. But it's really counter-productive if we want to
get most contributors on the list - back to active FAS account.

Jaroslav

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Benjamin Lewis at 12/11/2012 - 06:17

There is really no reason why the election messages couldn't go to all
of FAS, and just have a note explaining that you need cla_done to vote.

There is equally no reason, aside from it being more admin work, why you
couldn't have two lists. I just don't see how this is in any way better than
just catching some people who are ineligible to vote...

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By inode0 at 12/11/2012 - 11:51

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 4:17 AM, Benjamin Lewis <ben. ... at benl dot co.uk> wrote:
When only 200 people choose to vote in elections I'm not sure we need
to spam thousands of people who don't care in the least. If you do
care about them then there are plenty of opportunities to help run
them and there are plenty of opportunities to become aware of them
happening.

I understand there are times when people who do care are extremely
busy and just can't deal with every piece of email that comes through.
We can't change that fact of life. For anyone who does care and is
worried about missing the announcement please subscribe to the main
announce list and read it.

John

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Benjamin Lewis at 12/11/2012 - 19:53

Obvious follow-up question: why do these people not care? It might be
that our elections are just of no interest, in which case they can just
ignore the e-mail... There will be >5 e-mails of that nature per year
(I'm not sure of the precise number, perhaps its more, but it's of that
order!) I'm not sure they necessarily would have such an objection to voting
that being told about it would bother them...

My argument, however, was more about whether or not FAS should
auto-subscribe one to the announce list.

If we don't do some sort of "e-mail all of FAS" or "subscribe all of FAS to announce",
I agree entirely; but it is essential that we are consistent on where those announcements
- or at the very least the authoritative ones - go.

By extension, they should be in e-mails was obvious subjects, etc.,
etc.

Re: Am I the only one who missed the election?

By Michael Schwendt at 12/10/2012 - 11:01

Déjà-vu?
<a href="http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-December/112417.html" title="http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-December/112417.html">http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-December/112417.html</a>

;-)