gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
Doubtful. How much will that save? - A typical problem with KDE apps is
that not only they pull in some KDE libraries, the KDE packages come with
lots of additional KDE-specific dependencies.
Installing:
ktorrent i586 3.2.3-1.fc11 updates 3.3 M
Installing for dependencies:
akonadi i586 1.2.0-1.fc11 updates-testing 682 k
kdebase-workspace i586 4.3.0-8.fc11 updates-testing 14 M
kdebase-workspace-libs i586 4.3.0-8.fc11 updates-testing 906 k
kdepimlibs-akonadi i586 4.3.0-2.fc11 updates-testing 505 k
kdm i586 4.3.0-8.fc11 updates-testing 1.9 M
qt-mysql i586 1:4.5.2-2.fc11 updates 53 k
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24 comments
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
A torrent client requires a display manager and Qt MySQL? Hmm. Something
wrong with dependencies, here. I am sure, we can do better.
Rahul
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
It grew a dependency on some newer libraries in kdebase-workspace recently,
probably some prudent sub-packages are in order.
-- Rex
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
A quick way to actually check for such dependencies is to switch to
another desktop environment, say Xfce, remove all the KDE packages and
install one of the KDE apps. It usually reveals dependencies which
are rather silly. I have seen kde-settings, background packages and
kdebase pull in odd dependencies on occasions. k3b, ktorrent, scribus
et all are often used outside KDE.
Rahul
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
It's not like those dependencies bite. ;-) HDD space is cheap. I don't find
it scandalous that ktorrent drags in kdebase-workspace nor that kdebase-
workspace drags in Akonadi (and thus MySQL, which is a hard requirement of
Akonadi) and I'm not sure the current subpackage explosion (FYI, rdieter
split out subpackages to break both the links in the offending chain: in
upcoming updates, ktorrent no longer requires kdebase-workspace, only the
kde-plasma-ktorrent subpackage does, and kdebase-workspace no longer
requires akonadi, only the kdebase-workspace-akonadi subpackage does) are a
step in the right direction (as they mean the default installations of both
ktorrent and kdebase-workspace/Plasma will be missing features). I'd rather
have "unneccessary" dependencies than useful features not installed by
default.
Kevin Kofler
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
This is incorrect question setup. HDD space not always cheap. This may
be very expensive, f.e. on embedded systems, on USB-stick, Live-CD
images... Additionally it additional bandwidth on updates, which cost
often is more significant. But at end, main point for me what it is
"incorrect". This is very monolithic, small user chose to manipulation,
big and, as showed before, often produce additional errors (dependency
and others).
So, I do not call fanatic split all what we can find, but if we can
reasonably (ok, I do not want question and define it as at least
anything see in that sense) provide program separately - why you argue
with that?
At and, we see there discussion about big packages, and some arguments
why it is not problem. But what main arguments to do NOT split some thus
packages on few?
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
Hi Pavel,
as Kevin has already pointed out - we already did some splits, we discuss it
on our meeting, counting pros and cons. If you find something to be split, feel
free to report the bug, join our meeting, defend it. With good arguments we
can do it. But sometimes even one good reason is not enough to do it and there
could be another reason why we shouldn't do it.
Jaroslav
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
Not on netbooks it isn't! I'd have to buy a new machine to get bigger
than the 4 G ssd I currently have. There's a reason I nuked the entire
printing support chain, even though it deprived me (for no good reason
IMO) of kcalc.
I have to disagree with part of this. I don't disagree with
kdebase-workspace having a hard dependency on akonadi, but I /am/ leery
of anything that doesn't enhance the KDE desktop having a hard
dependency on kdebase-workspace.
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
Doesn't that thing even have a cardreader slot or something like that? Then
IMHO you made a really bad buying decision... But then again I just hate
netbooks altogether, as they reintroduced 32-bit-only machines at a time
where computing had finally just about completed its migration to 64-bit-
capable CPUs throughout and as things like screen "resolution" (pixel count,
really), RAM size, storage size etc. are reminiscent of computers from times
long past. And when it comes to portability, they can't compete with my
TI-89. ;-)
Kevin Kofler
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
Yes, but it's not usable for system storage. The one and only time I
tried to arrange for it to mount on boot (which would, I think, be
needed to put anything yum-managed there in a way that isn't an insane
hack), I had quite the time getting the machine to boot again.
Granted that was partly because inexperience made it fun figuring out
how to edit fstab when booted from a rescue disk (which fortunately I
had handy!!), but...
Nah, I *love* my Asus. The small ssd isn't really a *problem*, it just
means I have to adjust my expectations that I won't be installing
everything plus the kitchen sink, software-wise. (Plus the 8G models
weren't out when I bought it.)
Besides, even if it /was/ a bad decision, it only cost <$325 (including
tax) ;-).
The screen size issue was I think inevitable, as people in general are
turning less to "workstation computers" and more to mobile devices...
not just netbooks, but tablets and even phones. I don't buy the theory
that "workstation computers" are going to go away (after all, they said
that about the mainframe), but I wouldn't be surprised if they become
much more "niche", to the point where few people have one in their homes
any more. (I heard somewhere this is already happening in Asia.)
Like it or not, the vicious hardware upgrade cycle has been broken, and
the days of being able to count on people eventually having bigger and
better hardware are gone.
Or, put differently, "what Adam said". Sorry, but I agree with him here;
"[hardware] is cheap" is not a good attitude.
There is something wrong with having 1 G of RAM? If so, I haven't yet
experienced it. (And that number is only going to go up...)
...but does it run Fedora? ;-)
I can see a TI-89 *might* be able to keep up with kwrite from a
note-taking standpoint, but no way it could replace my Asus for how I
use it. Having a *full computer* that is the size of a (hardcover) book
and weights <1kg is wonderful for me.
I actually bought the thing just before taking a business trip. I took
my regular (company) laptop to the office the first day. After that, I
just brought my Asus. It did everything I needed on that trip, and is
soooo much easier to carry around (and it's small enough to comfortably
use in restaurants).
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
haven't yet
I actually discovered recently that the desktop at home has a bad
RAM stick and it's running KDE 4.2/4.3 fine from 512MB, so 1GB is
still in excess of baseline use. My setup would exhaust that
(though 1GB would still work until X eats it all), but for the
family it works fine.
- --Ben
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
There are other situations in which disk space is not free. I run
multiple virtual machines on a box which only has an 80GB hard disk, so
I only give each machine 5-10GB of disk space. Sure, I could go out and
buy a 500GB hard disk for it for 'only' $60, but that's still $60 I'd
rather keep in my pocket and an hour of drive installing and imaging I'd
rather avoid. And there's no legitimate reason for me to have to do that
when there's no reason a basic operating system installation should be
anywhere north of 1GB.
Frankly, developers with the attitude you're showing here are the reason
we all have to go out and buy new hardware every three years, and it's a
pain in the ass. Just because 'most people' have more than minimal
resources doesn't constitute a license to stop caring about good
practice.
My netbook has a 1.6GHz CPU, 120GB of hard disk space, and 2GB of RAM;
if you consider any of that to be only appropriate for computers from
'times long past' and not worth supporting, well, geesh.
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
The problem with kdebase-workspace (and kdm) is not disk space.
Installing the kdebase-workspace package enables KDE X sessions for users.
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
Well, KDM isn't what adds the KDE session type, kdebase-workspace is. KDM
can only be enabled by the admin. That said, kdebase-workspace will also not
require kdm in F12. We just had to keep this dependency when we split out
kdm in F10 and F11 for upgrade path reasons.
I'd argue enabling KDE sessions for users on a multi-user system is a good
thing. ;-)
Kevin Kofler
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
"Installing the kdebase-workspace package enables KDE X sessions for users"
is what I wrote. Quoted above.
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
switch to
packages and
dependencies which
packages and
ktorrent, scribus
cheap. I don't find
that kdebase-
requirement of
space.
sessions for users.
Oh dear, run for your lives. Last I used GDM, I didn't know
where to change the session type (I was looking). I haven't used
it in over a year since it's one of the first things to get
replaced on my systems. Looking at a screenshot with solar[1] I
see a restart, a shutdown, a power, and an accessibility button.
Nothing about sessions. Certainly not visible at least. So I
fail to see why this would be any issue at all. What am I
missing?
- --Ben
[1]https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/9/94/Tours_Fedora10_018_L
ogin_Screen.png
Re: ktorrent adds kdm - Re: Orphaning packages
Users, who discover what software is being offered, who know how to switch
the session type, and who will notice that the installed KDE is incomplete.
As if the admin had messed it up. Customising the personal desktop and
choosing between either GNOME or KDE is one of the first things many users
do. They even go as far as replacing the window manager, if alternative wm
are available.
On your fully private machine(s) it may not be an issue at all, I agree.
Re: ktorrent adds kdm - Re: Orphaning packages
used
I
button.
how to switch
is incomplete.
desktop and
things many users
alternative wm
So your issue is that kdebase-workspace puts it there, but it's
not complete, so it shouldn't? Do you have a better package in
which to add the session type?
As for WMs, Compiz and Metacity are missing things such as rules
for specific windows (can lock size or position, hide it from
the taskbar, shortcut to set focus, etc). For better or worse,
KWin is really indispensable for my setup. Even if I used some
other DE, kwin would probably end up being used.
all, I agree.
Re: ktorrent adds kdm - Re: Orphaning packages
[KDE X session file]
Well, in case installing ktorrent shall drag in the packages
for a complete KDE desktop, the current dependencies are incomplete.
Some packages are missing.
Alternatively, ktorrent shall drag in only what's really needed.
Would be tons better for the "Install KDE app on GNOME desktop"
scenario.
Re: ktorrent adds kdm - Re: Orphaning packages
That's what we are fighting on the other side of barricade - sometimes Gnome
stuff brings so many strange dependencies. There's only one solution - report
bug, defend it with arguments, it's not only about splitting but provides,
etc... But sometimes status quo wins ;-)
Jaroslav
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
Dne Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:01:39 -0400 Ben Boeckel napsal(a):
Session selection appears in the bottom toolbar after you select the
user.
Michal
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
It would be nice if things could be set up such that kdebase-workspace-akonadi
gets installed by default if both kdebase-workspace and akonadi are installed,
but not if only one of them is installed.
If RPM had a "Suggests" tag it would at least be possible to inform users that
there is a related package available that they can install if they want to.
Björn Persson
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
Being able to have a pair of packages require something is a feature I've
wanted for some time as well, unfortunately there's no way to implement this
in an RPM package at RPM's current stage.
Kevin Kofler
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
Have you file a RFE at <a href="http://rpm.org" title="http://rpm.org">http://rpm.org</a>?
Rahul
Re: gwenview - Re: Orphaning packages
Unneeded dependencies do bite. I have a net connection with a bandwidth
cap at home. Packages that pulls in random silly dependencies are a big
pain. I have sit through updates of them as well. There more often those
packages get updated, the bigger the pain is. yum-presto is a life
saver but the dependency bloat is not a ignorable problem at all.
Rahul