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langpacks (Re: F30 System-Wide Change proposal: Replace Comps Language Group With Langpacks)

<a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Replace_Comps_Language_Group_With_Langpacks" title="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Replace_Comps_Language_Group_With_Langpacks">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Replace_Comps_Language_Group_With...</a>

It is really shame that instead just setting up
/etc/rpm/macros::%_install_langs on distro install time people are
discussing how to waste time to create even more langpacks.
The same is with separating doc subpackages which can be done by
/etc/rpm/macros::%_excludedocs yes or use --excludedocs on single package
install/upgrade.

If those functionalities are not used why not to remove code handling that
from rpm and remove using %doc tags?

Instead implementing handle more class files like it has IPS with facets
[1] seems like most of the Fedora packagers want to waste to the end of the
word more and more time on create even more subpckages classes to fulfil
demands of installed resources customisation.
In time when most of the people using computers are trying to automate as
much as possible Fedora for some reasons chose to go in completely opposite
direction.
Again .. shame, really shame.

Funny (and scary) is that anaconda provides function to choose exact
languages support when system is installed but nothing is added to
/etc/rpm/macros to really make this choice real.
%find_lang macro takes care of tagging some files using %lang() macros but
nothing in the rest of the Fedora is going to use those tags.
Maybe it would be better to abandon use %find_lang?
Why no one is taking care to convert more and more man pages in source
trees (like I've done it more than decade ago in shadow-utils) to embed
proper maintenance platform to keep up-to-date exact package man pages to
other languages and still most of those man pages are desync state (in
refer to original eng versions) and still maintaining man-pages-<lang>
packages which usually installs many man pages which are for some packages
not installed in system image?
IMO all man-pages-<lang> packages should disappear from distribution.
%find_lang used --with-man option takes care of collecting all language
specific man pages as well, and more than 100 Fedora package are using this
option .. but again nothing during fresh Fedora install is using those tags.

[1] <a href="https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E36784_01/html/E36802/gkkgg.html" title="https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E36784_01/html/E36802/gkkgg.html">https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E36784_01/html/E36802/gkkgg.html</a>

kloczek

Comments

Re: langpacks (Re: F30 System-Wide Change proposal: Replace Comp

By Jens Petersen at 01/11/2019 - 00:18

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 2:41 AM Tomasz Kłoczko <kloczko. ... at gmail dot com>
wrote:

This is a good point though and something we can try for perhaps, but how
to handle Live image installs for example?

+1 on this and thank you

Are there any associated bugs/RFEs filed for these points?

Jens

Re: langpacks (Re: F30 System-Wide Change proposal: Replace Comp

By =?UTF-8?Q?Tomas... at 01/11/2019 - 08:11

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 05:27, Jens-Ulrik Petersen < ... at redhat dot com>
wrote:
[..]

Feel free to open bug/RFE.
I have no patience to deal with Fedora bureaucracy :P

I can give you one more vectors to search to make use %find_lang more
effectively.

[tkloczko@domek SPECS.fedora]$ grep ^\%lang\( * -l | wc -l
107

So in 107 current Fedora specs are used %lang() macros.
Probably some of them can be removed by proper use %find_lang.

kloczek

Re: langpacks (Re: F30 System-Wide Change proposal: Replace Comp

By Jakub Jelinek at 01/11/2019 - 08:28

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 01:11:00PM +0100, Tomasz Kłoczko wrote:
The problem with _install_langs is that there is no easy way to change it
after installation, say you find out you've initially installed just English
and French support, but later you need German and Italian. rpm nor dnf
doesn't offer any easy way to add those missing %lang parts to the installed
packages.

Jakub

Re: langpacks (Re: F30 System-Wide Change proposal: Replace Comp

By =?UTF-8?Q?Tomas... at 01/11/2019 - 14:33

First: situation when someone may need to change set of lang dependent
resources is extremely rare.
In other words: Jakub you see the problem where in practice there is no
problem.
Second: just checked part of my own procedures adjusting set of installed
land dependent resources:

echo "reinstall packages with only necessary locale"
echo "%_install_langs en,pl" > /etc/rpm/macros
rpm --rebuilddb; dnf clean all; df -k /; rpm -qal|grep LC_MESSAGES|xargs
rpm -qf 2>&1|sort|uniq|xargs dnf -yq reinstall; rpm --rebuilddb; dnf clean
all; df -k /

Probably this can be improved by other rpm db query extracting list of
files with lang tags but for me it is GoodEnugh(tm).

Third: reduction of installed lang dependent resources can be done by rpm
db query -> extract list of files which needs to be removed -> correct list
of installed files -> remove unwanted files. Add such function to existing
to existing rpm/dnf (you must probably agree) will be trivial. Isn't it?
Extending set of installed languages support in case of rpm is only
possible to do by full download of affected packages and reinstall them or
in simplified scenario extract files which needs to be added to installed
system image.
In other words .. even this is relatively easy.

And yes .. at the moment only Solaris IPS provides handling above scenarios
in simplest possible way because in IPS semantic package exist only as
object in remotely accessible repository which each object like file or
metadata can be downloaded separately. This solves as well many other rpm
issues like existence of rpm noarch package, lack of sharing common files
between arch dependent packages and sharing not changing files between
packages versions/releases on packages repository side.

koczek

Re: langpacks (Re: F30 System-Wide Change proposal: Replace Comp

By Nicolas Mailhot at 01/14/2019 - 11:00

Le 2019-01-11 19:33, Tomasz Kłoczko a écrit :
It is not, people who create container or vm images will always try to
optimize away the languages they don’t use themselves, so the consumers
of those images have to reinject their own language support post-install

Regards,

Re: langpacks (Re: F30 System-Wide Change proposal: Replace Comp

By Jens Petersen at 01/21/2019 - 05:54

On Mon, 14 Jan 2019, 16:01 Nicolas Mailhot <nicolas. ... at laposte dot net
wrote:

Yes, I think we should really have a small tool to deal with this.

Jens

Re: langpacks (Re: F30 System-Wide Change proposal: Replace Comp

By Jens Petersen at 01/11/2019 - 00:09

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 2:41 AM Tomasz Kłoczko <kloczko. ... at gmail dot com>
wrote:

This Change is not about adding new langpacks packages to Fedora or even
about translation langpacks.
We are just cleaning up the old language support groups in Fedora comps and
moving their manifest package to weak deps in the existing langpacks meta
packages.

Jens

Re: langpacks (Re: F30 System-Wide Change proposal: Replace Comp

By =?UTF-8?Q?Tomas... at 01/11/2019 - 07:59

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 05:17, Jens-Ulrik Petersen < ... at redhat dot com>
wrote:

Issue is that now adding those weak dependencies is consequences of
introducing lagpacks.
This classic taming growing entropy of some side effects by allowing to
increase general entropy in prev steps.

Tomasz