DevHeads.net

RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

This is very much a draft, but I'd like to start a discussion regarding
what we expect from primary architectures. Feedback not only welcome,
but actively desired.

Secondary architectures in Fedora are subject to looser constraints than
primary architectures for two primary reasons:

1) To make it easier to bootstrap an architecture without the overhead
of the primary architecture release engineering process
2) To avoid primary architecture development being held up by poorly
developed or niche architectures

Promoting an architecture to primary architecture status is a
significant responsibility. It implies that the port is sufficiently
mature that little in the way of further architecture-specific changes
or rebuilds will be required, and also that it has enough development
effort to avoid it delaying the development of other primary
architectures. Further, it means that the architecture becomes part of
the overall Fedora brand. Fedora is an integrated Linux distribution
rather than a technology collection, and as such there are various
expectations that the overall Fedora experience will be consistent over
all primary architectures.

In order to ensure that these expectations are met, secondary
architectures must meet various criteria before they can be promoted:

1) There must be adequate representation for the architecture on the
Fedora infrastructure and release engineering teams.
2) All builds must occur on Fedora-maintained build servers.
3) Where technically possible, all supported hardware targets must be
supported via Anaconda. Exceptions are limited to highly resource
constrained devices or hardware which provides no means for simultaneous
support of install and target media.
4) All supported platforms must have kernels built from the Fedora
kernel SRPM and enabled by default in the spec file. Each kernel must be
built in a timely manner for every SRPM upload.
5) Sufficient developer resources must be available to fix any
architecture-specific issues in such a way that they do not delay
overall Fedora development.
6) It must be possible for maintainers of critical-path hardware
dependent packages to have direct access to supported hardware in order
to rectify any release-blocking issues. For example, X maintainers must
have direct access to any hardware with graphics capabilities.
7) The port must not rely on sourceless binaries unless they fall under
the generic firmware exemption. Where source and toolchain are
available, the binaries must be built in the Fedora build
infrastructure.

As such, promotion to primary architecture status will require agreement
from the Fedora infrastructure, release engineering, kernel and
installer teams and is subject to overall approval by the Fedora
Steering Committee.

Comments

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Matthew Garrett at 04/23/2012 - 15:00

After some tweaking, these are now accepted as
<a href="https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Secondary_Architecture_Promotion_Requirements" title="https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Secondary_Architecture_Promotion_Requirements">https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Secondary_Architecture_Promo...</a>

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By =?UTF-8?B?IkrDs... at 04/23/2012 - 15:33

On 04/23/2012 07:00 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
Fail to see the reasoning why Anaconda and the "Installer team" are
involved in these requirements care to elaborate how/why FESCo fits them
into the bigger picture?

JBG

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Bill Nottingham at 04/23/2012 - 15:45

"Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" (<a href="mailto: ... at gmail dot com"> ... at gmail dot com</a>) said:
We shouldn't be promoting anything to primary arch that you can't install.

Bill

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By =?UTF-8?B?IkrDs... at 04/23/2012 - 16:29

On 04/23/2012 07:45 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Valid point but it still does not explain why FESCo chose to limit that
exclusively to Anaconda and the "Installer team" and their installation
methods or lack there of.

<FESCo>
Sorry guys your arch will have to wait to become primary until Anaconda
and the "Installer team" has

a) Decided
b) Designed
c) Implemented

How to install your arch.

<Wanting to be primary arch SIG>

But our user base already can install via this method here and we
actually preferred they did..

<FESCo>
Sorry no flag no country those are the rules so if you want to sail
under the Fedora flag you have to ride the snake...

JBG

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Matthew Garrett at 04/23/2012 - 16:34

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 08:29:59PM +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
ARM is moving into the server and laptop space. There's an expectation
that devices of that nature can be installed using Anaconda. If a port
is only supporting embedded devices where Anaconda makes no sense then
that's fine, but if it's supporting other hardware classes then it needs
to have a working Anaconda. I've no idea why this is controversial.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Matthew Garrett at 04/23/2012 - 15:42

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 07:33:44PM +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
Because if you have hardware that can install via Anaconda and you don't
support installing via Anaconda, you're not Fedora.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jared K. Smith at 04/23/2012 - 16:13

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Matthew Garrett < ... at srcf dot ucam.org> wrote:
Just for the sake of argument, our Amazon EC2 images aren't using
Anaconda for installation, but they're still considered part of
Fedora.

I agree with the sentiment that Anaconda should be a requirement for
instances where it makes sense to boot from bootable media
(DVD/CD/USB) and install via Anaconda, but in the case of ARM, the
traditional installation method is often "copy an image to an SD (or
micro-SD) card and then boot from that card. Just to make sure I'm
clear, are you insisting that the software tool that puts the image on
the SD card be Anaconda, or are you OK with some other Fedora-approved
tool for doing so?

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Brian C. Lane at 04/24/2012 - 13:05

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 04:13:40PM -0400, Jared K. Smith wrote:
That's why I recently added EC2 support to livemedia-creator. Since I
don't have an EC2 account it is untested -- help would be appreciated.

We should be able to make images using livemedia-creator -- It needs to
be run on the target hardware though, currently there is no cross-arch
support. The last I heard from ARM was that Anaconda wasn't built for
ARM.

The goal of creating lmc was to use Anaconda's logic for all installs,
including creating system images or live media.. This will increase
reliability and cut down on the number of bugs we see because
livecd-creator really is just a wrapper around a yum chroot install.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jared K. Smith at 04/24/2012 - 15:58

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Brian C. Lane < ... at redhat dot com> wrote:
Awesome. I'll try to check it out in the next week or so.

I know the folks up at Seneca have been working on building it for ARM
-- I've been a bit out of the ARM loop the last couple of weeks, so I
don't know the very latest status. I'll try to find out in tomorrow's
ARM meeting.

Yes, I'm well aware of the goals behind lmc, and I think it's
definitely a better way forward.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jon Ciesla at 04/23/2012 - 16:22

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Jared K. Smith
< ... at fedoraproject dot org> wrote:
I think that's more akin to a spin.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By =?UTF-8?B?IkrDs... at 04/23/2012 - 15:54

On 04/23/2012 07:42 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
JBG

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Matthew Garrett at 04/23/2012 - 16:00

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 07:54:57PM +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
Fesco is saying that if you have hardware that can install via Anaconda,
you must support installing via Anaconda. It's legitimate for you to
also have other install mechanisms, and hardware that's incapable of
supporting Anaconda installs isn't required to have them.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jared K. Smith at 04/23/2012 - 16:14

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Matthew Garrett < ... at srcf dot ucam.org> wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. I just wanted to make sure I understood that.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By =?UTF-8?B?IkrDs... at 04/23/2012 - 16:57

On 04/23/2012 08:14 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
FESCo should make that more clear in the requirements but even if they
do they still make secondary architecture solely depended upon the will
and the time of someone within the "Installer team" to implement the
solution required to install Fedora for their architecture before they
can become primary architecture.

That can mean from never to having to wait for several release cycles
before becoming primary architecture for the distribution.

From my point of view that makes absolutly no sense and the
requirements should be refactored to require an working installation
method...

JBG

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Bill Nottingham at 04/23/2012 - 17:07

"Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" (<a href="mailto: ... at gmail dot com"> ... at gmail dot com</a>) said:
There are these magical things called patches that can be submitted.
Much like the secondary arch team would need to do so for the kernel
(also mentioned in the guidelines), the X maintainers (also mentioned
in the guidelines), etc. Unless you're suggesting secondary arch
maintainers are somehow unable to do so?

Fedora's about providing a consistent experience wherever possible; this
means using consistent interactive installation tools, consistent image
creation tools, and so on.

Bill

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By =?UTF-8?B?IkrDs... at 04/23/2012 - 18:08

On 04/23/2012 09:07 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
It's not enough to always be using the same tools but those tools need
to be consitent in usage as well so for your noble goal now try putting
consistency and Anaconda in the same sentence =)

All jokes aside and focusing on a bit more broader but fundemental
question so I and perhaps some others can get a better understanding why
things are as they are in the 21 first century.

Why do we distinquish between architectures in the first place and what
do we hope to achive or otherwise gain from doing that in a community
that first and foremost is about scratching your own itch ( at least for
some of us )?

What is the justification for the need for the seperation in the firstplace?

JBG

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Matthew Garrett at 04/23/2012 - 18:19

You'd be fine with Fedora m68k? We have the separation because it's not
just about scratching your own itch. Each additional supported
architecture means that teams who are already overworked have to look
after even more moving parts. Architecture-specific bugs are a pain for
package maintainers to deal with. Attaching the Fedora name to poorly
maintained ports weakens our brand. If we're going to support an
architecture then its maintainers need to prove that they can maintain
it.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Matthew Garrett at 04/23/2012 - 17:02

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 08:57:47PM +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
Yes, in the same way that they need someone in the kernel team to build
them a kernel. It's a package. It's under active development. It just
needs someone on the architecture to write the code.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Brendan Conoboy at 04/23/2012 - 15:59

On 04/23/2012 12:54 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
It's not about anaconda specifically, it's about having a standard
installer experience across all PAs to the extent technically sensible.
Maybe something else will supplant anaconda in time.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Adam Williamson at 04/25/2012 - 12:42

FWIW, in writing the QA release criteria, we used the generic term 'the
installer' rather than the specific 'anaconda' to avoid this kind of
ambiguity. In general I tend to prefer the use of generic terms in this
kind of policy document for exactly this reason - to acknowledge and
protect against the possibility of the currently-favoured implementation
of any particular thing changing in future.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jon Ciesla at 04/23/2012 - 15:59

2012/4/23 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" < ... at gmail dot com>:
I think it wasn't so much forbidding alternate methods as requiring
that the primary one be supported.

-J

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Matthew Garrett at 03/28/2012 - 17:11

I'm planning on moving this to the Wiki (as a draft) at the end of the
week, so if people have any further feedback please let me know.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Matthew Garrett at 04/02/2012 - 10:45

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 10:11:35PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
Now at
<a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Secondary_Architecture_Promotion_Requirements_%28Draft%29" title="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Secondary_Architecture_Promotion_Requirements_%28Draft%29">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Secondary_Architecture_Promotion_Requireme...</a>

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Miloslav =?UTF-... at 04/02/2012 - 14:37

On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 4:45 PM, Matthew Garrett < ... at srcf dot ucam.org> wrote:
FESCo would welcome more discussion of this draft, and plans to vote
on it next week.
Mirek

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Kevin Kofler at 03/20/2012 - 12:56

Matthew Garrett wrote:
So, first of all, I disagree that there should be a process for promoting an
architecture to primary in the first place. The set of primary architectures
(x86_64, i686) should be set in stone unless a MAJOR change in hardware
landscape happens, e.g. x86 gets discontinued by the hardware manufacturers
and everyone uses ARM instead. I don't see that happening any time soon.
Adding primary architectures puts a major burden on all Fedora maintainers.

In the current state of things, I don't see a sufficient demand for making
ARM (or even less any other secondary architecture) a primary architecture.
If ARM is really the future as its proponents claim, we can revisit that in
a few years. Not now.

The focus should be on finding ways to make secondary architecture releases
more timely (i.e. it's not acceptable that e.g. the stable ARM release is
still Fedora 14 which doesn't even get security updates anymore), not to
cheat around the problem by making ARM a primary architecture (which does
not help all the other secondary architectures).

3) To avoid slowing down all builds by having to wait for the slow builders
to complete them.
4) To avoid build failures caused by platform-specific toolchain bugs or
limitations failing the entire build and forcing the maintainer to fix them.

Why would we want to make such an architecture (the "exceptions") primary?!

This lacks several important requirements:
* The platform should actually have a significant market share. Why would we
want to make an obscure niche device a primary architecture (even if it
fulfills all the 7 requirements you listed)? Your criteria would even allow
architectures to become primary which don't have anywhere near the market
share even ARM has (let alone x86).
* The builders should not take significantly longer to complete builds than
the x86 builders. Otherwise builds (especially chain builds) will be slowed
down by a lot.
* The architecture needs to have sufficient support from the pool of Fedora
maintainers as a whole, who will be on the hook for making their packages
build for it.
* The toolchain (port) needs to have sufficient quality to not cause tons of
platform-specific bugs which are of no fault of the package. (We've had our
fair share of those with ppc/ppc64, due to both bugs and bizarre TOC size
limitations.)

Kevin Kofler

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Tomas Mraz at 03/20/2012 - 11:37

I do not like this requirement. This seems to be specifically provided
to block the possibility to have ARM as a primary architecture if we do
not want to support just one or two ARM platforms. I do not really see a
problem in limiting platforms during rawhide development and branched
development. Additional platforms could be enabled for final builds
before the release freezes and for update builds.

Another solution might be in koji where the kernels for the additional
platforms would be built in parallel on multiple build hosts. Of course
that would require changes in koji.

Of course the general requirement that builds on the architecture to be
promoted must not take much longer time than builds on the current
primary architectures still stays.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jesse Keating at 03/20/2012 - 14:35

On 3/20/12 8:37 AM, Tomas Mraz wrote:
That just means those platforms are getting tested at the same time the
rest of the distribution is, and then when you turn it on you suddenly
find bugs that need to be fixed which invalidates testing done already.
Playing the "turn it on late" game is a non-starter IMHO.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Kevin Kofler at 03/20/2012 - 13:14

Yet that requirement makes a lot of sense, and is yet another reason why ARM
shouldn't even be CONSIDERED for primary status at this point. Building a
separate kernel for every single machine just doesn't scale. Imagine if we
had to build a Thinkpad kernel, a MacBook kernel, a Dell Inspiron kernel
etc. (and I didn't even bring model numbers in here!). There's no way such a
setup is supportable.

Indeed it would, and it still wouldn't fix the underlying issue.

Right, and I don't see ARM satisfying this any time soon either.

Kevin Kofler

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Matthew Garrett at 03/20/2012 - 11:51

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 04:37:17PM +0100, Tomas Mraz wrote:
The problem with not doing a full set of builds in rawhide is that it
significantly reduces the testing - both in terms of making sure that
code still bilds, and in terms of making sure that we don't have
unexpected functional regressions. Shortly before release is a really
bad time to discover this. My impression is that the kernel team don't
want that to be a possibility.

Yes, there's no fundamental reason that these builds need to occur in
series. If koji had support for exploding builds out to multiple
machines then things would work much better. Another alternative might
be to investigate whether distcc is practical in this environment.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jon Ciesla at 03/20/2012 - 11:55

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Matthew Garrett < ... at srcf dot ucam.org> wrote:
Matthew, can you add your initial list to the ticket as well, so we
have these starting places to refer to?

-J

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Matthew Garrett at 03/20/2012 - 11:57

I was planning to after we'd had some discussion here, just to make sure
I wasn't proposing anything too unreasonable.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jon Ciesla at 03/20/2012 - 11:59

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Matthew Garrett < ... at srcf dot ucam.org> wrote:
Excellent.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Josh Boyer at 03/20/2012 - 11:47

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Tomas Mraz < ... at redhat dot com> wrote:
There's nothing blocking ARM from building multiple kernels in that
requirement. They just need to all be enabled in the SRPM that gets sent
to koji for the build. We do this for 32-bit x86 already by building both
the normal and PAE i686 variants. The intention is to basically have a
consistent and reproducible build for all kernels built from a single SRPM.

I really don't think we want to enable additional kernels for final builds
that have not been tested at all during development of the release. That
doesn't make sense at all and sounds like poor engineering practice.

That would be acceptable of course, and it would still fit with the
requirement above just fine.

josh

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Brendan Conoboy at 03/20/2012 - 12:38

On 03/20/2012 08:47 AM, Josh Boyer wrote:
This is infact what we're doing now- a single kernel build produces rpms
for a number of different ARM platforms (omap, tegra, imx, versatile, etc).

Agree.

I'm not sure how it would work, but if koji can be extended to
distribute a single arch build across multiple systems where an
identical srpm can be built with a koji-controlled set of flags, this
would take care of the wide-breadth of kernels needing to be built.

We've also had some success with distcc, but have not proposed using it
as reproducability of builds becomes an issue.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jesse Keating at 03/20/2012 - 14:37

On 3/20/12 9:38 AM, Brendan Conoboy wrote:
We had something like this where i586 and i686 were considered different
arches, at least for the kernel, and those two builds would happen in
parallel often on different machines. Perhaps the same could be done
for the arm variants as well.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Brendan Conoboy at 03/20/2012 - 15:05

On 03/20/2012 11:37 AM, Jesse Keating wrote:
Right now we consider armv5tel and armv7hl to be different aches so they
are built on separate machines. That bit of optimization is done.

IIf there is some sane way to distribute a single armv7hl or armv5tel
build across multiple builders that may be an interesting avenue to
pursue (Sanity tbd by releng:-). The builders we expect to see this
year have 4 cores, but if we could realistically do a 'make -j 32' and
have 8 systems involved in any one package, that'd certainly take care
of performance concerns for parallelizable builds. It's a neat idea,
but making it work reliably is a proposal unto itself.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jesse Keating at 03/20/2012 - 15:16

On 3/20/12 12:05 PM, Brendan Conoboy wrote:
Yeah, I see that as another rather large proposal. It could make some
other build tasks go faster too, even on x86, but traditionally we've
pushed away from that because of the complexity it presents and concerns
of reproducible results. Then again this discussion was ages ago when
the tech to do such things was youngish.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jakub Jelinek at 03/20/2012 - 11:24

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 03:19:35PM +0000, Matthew Garrett wrote:
I think the speed of the build hardware should be also part of the criteria,
as all primary architectures are built synchronously. GCC on x86_64/i686
currently builds often in 2 hours, sometimes in 4 hours if a slower or more
busy box is chosen, but on ARM it regularly builds 2 days. That is a slow
down factor of 12x-24x, guess for other larger packages it is similar.

Jakub

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Kevin Kofler at 03/20/2012 - 13:00

Jakub Jelinek wrote:
+1

Kevin Kofler

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Brendan Conoboy at 03/20/2012 - 11:58

On 03/20/2012 08:24 AM, Jakub Jelinek wrote:
Our current build systems can turn GCC 4.7 around in about 24 hours.
The enterprise hardware we anticipate using will take that down to about
12 hours. If speed of build hardware is a consideration, where do you
draw the line? No secondary arch is going to get to the speed of x86_64
in the foreseeable future, so it's effectively a way to keep PA an
exclusive x86 club.

I think the real question is, for the developers of on devel-list, how
will longer builds for one arch than another affect your workflow? If
builds on two architectures start at the same time, but one takes longer
to finish than the other, how will that impact you? Right now you'll
still be able to see and use the results of the faster build before the
slower build completes, so are you materially impacted?

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jesse Keating at 03/20/2012 - 14:16

On 3/20/12 8:58 AM, Brendan Conoboy wrote:
You are materially impacted. AutoQA won't run until the entire build is
complete. Updates cannot be prepared until the entire build is
complete. Buildroots won't be updated with the build results until the
entire build is complete. You won't know if your build /fails/ on the
arch until it's done, etc...

Having one arch significantly slower than the others absolutely creates
material impact upon developers.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Brendan Conoboy at 03/20/2012 - 14:59

On 03/20/2012 11:16 AM, Jesse Keating wrote:
I haven't run this by anybody yet, so if it's nonsense just say so, but...

Would it be reasonable to, even amongst primary architectures, allow
these steps to go forward even if one arch fails while another succeeds?
Let's say we have arch-groups in primary- i686 and x86_64 are in a
group, armv7hl and armv5tel are in a group. The results of one group do
not inhibit the progress of another. Feasible with a bit of retooling,
or a nightmare waiting to happen? The discussion so far has focused
almost exclusively on build time. We hear you. Let's talk about what
to do about it. And what concerns there are besides build time.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jesse Keating at 03/20/2012 - 15:05

On 3/20/12 11:59 AM, Brendan Conoboy wrote:
What you are describing is what we tried to do, which resulted in
secondary arches. The primary arch group can move on with life, while
the secondary arch plods along, hopefully finishing. If it doesn't
finish, it can catch up later, but for the primary arches, life moves on.

So if you're willing to live like that, I must ask again, what do you
think you'll be getting out of being a primary arch?

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Brendan Conoboy at 03/20/2012 - 15:14

On 03/20/2012 12:05 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
I'm willing to temporarily do better than secondary and worse than
primary on the road to becoming primary. This is a huge transition-
identifying the right path to make that transition is part of what this
is about. The whole point of this thread is to establish requirements
for promotion. Part of that discussion logically includes the steps to
get there. Currently what I hear is "be as good as x86 and you're
there." That's not productive. There are legitimate issues with moving
to PA so we're having this discussion to identify them and ultimately
work through them.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Alexander Kurtakov at 03/20/2012 - 16:01

If we really have to set requirements for proposals I see one thing totally missed from the discussion up to now.
Is the SA ready? And giving a definition for being ready:
* does it release together with the PAs?
* has it ever released without a significant delay? define delay - 1 month?, 3 months?
* does it have the majority of the packages readgy? 70? 80? 90%?
* name yours

I really think that before promoting SA to PA it should have at least one release being done together with the PAs with a sufficient feature set. Nothing prevents SA to prove that it can deliver on time much like the PA do now.

Alex

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jesse Keating at 03/20/2012 - 15:19

On 3/20/12 12:14 PM, Brendan Conoboy wrote:
What does "better than secondary arch" mean to you? I'm really
struggling here.

We as a group have identified many of the roadblocks or pain points of
bringing arm into primary arch. You're suggested solution in this
sub-thread is effectively treating arm as secondary arch, and when asked
about this, you've avoided the question, once again, of what it is you
expect to get out of being primary arch.

I'm really not sure how much more rational discussion we can have here.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Brendan Conoboy at 03/20/2012 - 15:32

On 03/20/2012 12:19 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
As an example, the same koji server handling x86 builds handling ARM
builds. The same facilities providing power, cooling, storage. Subject
to applicability, the same QE mechanisms being employed. The same
release schedule. Comparable positioning on the Fedora downloads pages.
Primary and secondary are night-and-day different, it isn't just the
integrated build system being disconnected, it's end-to-end.

What pain points have been described other than "I am concerned about
the impact of builds on the whole running slower than they do now"?
This is not a facetious question, this is really what we're trying to
get from the thread.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jesse Keating at 03/20/2012 - 16:03

On 3/20/12 12:32 PM, Brendan Conoboy wrote:
Only the koji hub would be the same, the arm builders would be different
machines. This isn't all that different from having the primary hub
trigger the arm hub to start a build on the arm builders.

The PPC builders are there, or at least were at some point, why not
propose moving some arm stuff there for the arm secondary arch effort?

I don't see SA/PA mattering as much here. It's up to QE what they want
to take on and what they point automated tooling at.

That's set by you, as a secondary arch. Why not pin it to the Fedora
release schedule and see how well you do?

That's a big ball of "another issue" there. That's a constant fight
within the spins of the primary arch products, and from what I've seen,
Arm products are more closely aligned with spins than anything else.

That said, within the websites group perhaps there is room for a
featured secondary arch, with high visibility. Having something to
point to first would help.

Did you just ignore the emails starting these two threads by mjg and
pjones? I believe they outlined some very good requirements for getting
a secondary arch into primary. These longer threads have been debating
some of the finer points of those proposals.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Adam Williamson at 03/20/2012 - 20:14

In theory...yeah. In boring every day practice, we'd take a lot more
heat for 'not QAing a primary arch' than we would for 'not QAing a
secondary arch'.

I mean, right now, Fedora QA does just about zip for PPC or ARM. And
no-one not directly involved in PPC or ARM has ever complained to us
about that.

If ARM were a primary arch, I rather suspect they would.

But sure, in theory, we can do just about anything for a secondary arch
that we do for a primary arch, I don't think there's any technical
barrier to us doing update karma for ARM and test days for ARM and a
release validation process for ARM and all the rest of it. It's just a
question of motivation and personpower.

Re: RFC: Primary architecture promotion requirements

By Jesse Keating at 03/20/2012 - 20:23

On 3/20/12 5:14 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
My point is that the motivation and personpower can come independent of
whether arm is a PA or an SA. As you say, no technical barrier.